Hey guys! I'm bringing you another post on culture. Why? Because I can. [Also because I thought of this at midnight and I'm very intrigued.]
So I was surfing the internet -as a person like me does- and I came across something that kind of irritated me. Don't ask me how I stumbled upon a dated blog post from two years ago because I have no idea. All I know is that it was in regards to my favorite series: Shadow and Bone by Leigh Bardugo.
I don't really know why it's my favorite series. There really isn't one thing that makes it stand above all else. That being said, when I read the blog post, I didn't feel the need to post a rant comment in response. I'm classy as hell so I took it to my own blog.
In essence, the blog post was a huge complaint about how Shadow and Bone was a story that butchered Russia, its culture and language. Damn. That's a pretty heavy accusation. To be perfectly clear, I don't know a lot about Russian culture and I think in a way, that's the good part about books that have culture - so we can learn in ways that are more interesting than reading a non-fiction.
But let's get this out of the way: Ravka is not Russia.
I went into the book knowing that it was high fantasy. Knowing that Leigh didn't want to have another run of the mill fantasy book set in Godknowswhere middle ages where people wear tights and talk with words that end in -eth. I guess, I could assume that maybe the reader who wrote the rant didn't know this? That he/she expected authentic Russian culture and received a unique and interesting take of Earth's geography and history. Or even go as far as to say that he/she is Russian and the book personally offended them?
But all of this leads me to the question which is the title of the post: does a fantasy world inspired by a culture have to stay true to it?
Note: I'm not talking about racism in the world building. That was the other discussion. I'm also not trying to ignore the topic; I'm just not touching on that because it's a whole other topic entirely with an easy answer. Yes, culturally inspired fantasy worlds should never be offensive to the culture its deriving from.
Now that, that's out of the way...
Something that made me stay away from Jay Kristoff's Stormdancer series was because of some of the reviews I saw. He's obviously a capable author - I loved Illuminae. I was all ready to go read his previous work but then I found reviews that claimed that the world was butchered.
Like Bardugo's world, Kristoff's is inspired by a culture.
To me, this can go two ways. Either, the author means it and it's evident in the writing. With Bardugo's, you can see it in the world - it's got a Russia-like feel but it obviously is not Russia. Or things can go the way where the author says "inspired by a culture" so they don't take responsibility when they eff up or leave an important part of the culture out. I don't like to assume the worst of authors so I always try to think of the first but really, I think it's about the reader. Some will see the uniqueness of the fantasy world. Some won't. And those who don't may chalk it up to the author not staying true to the culture.
Oh, how about this? How come if say, I wanted to write a fantasy story, I could use my fourth grade knowledge about the middle ages and screw up whatever I wanted to and no one would care? If I said that there were gremlins that sparkled purple that lived in caves in England, no one would care. It would be idiotic but I doubt that I would get blasted for "messing up a culture" [even though, technically I am.] However, if I turn a culture that isn't often seen [Russia, Japan etc.] into something unique and fantasy-ish, I'd get blasted for not staying 150% true?
You believe that there are dragons; there are dragon slayers and the slayers have magic but you can't believe in a world that's parallel to our own where things are a little/lot different? I don't know how I feel about all of this. I think it matters so much about the context. I can't say that all books need to be culturally correct. It depends on how different and fantasy-like the world has become. To me, the situation is different for every book and we need to read them before making a judgment. [As opposed to: "This book gets its inspiration from Russia but the names aren't culturally correct!"]
I feel like I'm writing the same kind of discussions; sorry about that! I just happened to stumble on something that got the creative juices flowing! And yes, I would love to hear your thoughts about this. I hope we're more calmed down about the last incident to talk about this one civilly too! I really hope to learn from your comments [and I urge you to also learn from other comments!]
This is a great topic! The Grisha trilogy is also one of my favorite series, so it's hard not to get defensive about it. We should all know it's not really Russia. As for butchering the words, I read somewhere that Bardugo took Russian words and deliberately changed then to make them easier to (mentally) pronounce and remember, and so that the way the word sounded (it's "mood," if you will) fit with what she was going for. Which is totally ok because it's not supposed to be real!
ReplyDeleteI read Stormdancer (and plan to read the ready of the series) and enjoyed it a lot. The world-building was one of the best parts, and while it has very heavy Japanese influence, it's also not supposed to be Japan itself; the map clarifies that. While I'm no expert on Japanese culture, I didn't come across anything that might seem offensive, and it actually seemed like Kristoff probably did a lot of research. There are extensive language/ mythology etc. guides in the back, too. So I wouldn't necessarily let those reviews turn you off reading it!
- Lina @ Every Book a World
I know what you mean about the fave series thing. For sure, I got really defensive at first but I'm hoping that this post comes more across as questioning, rather than accusatory? And yes! I read that too - I think it was in the interview in the back of the Shadow and Bone pb.
DeleteThe thing is that you say you aren't an expert on Japan, as I'm not an expert on Russia so maybe that's why we didn't take offense to it?
Yeah, that might be true. It's also that the Japanese culture Kristoff draws form is ancient, so it also feels quite removed from modern times so that no one really knows what it was like, either. So many questions!
DeleteI feel like why people are offended is that these cultures are portrayed rarely and you get super excited when you hear there's a book finally based on that, and then it turns out inaccurate. I've actually been holding off on reading Cinder because I read one such review and I know I'd be crushed if this happened to a book set in fictional China.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I too write stuff "based on" different cultures, and one of my most recent MCs come from a place that's a mashup of Egyptian, Arabic and Spanish culture. The safest thing to do, I think, is to find betas to give you a heads up, and just be as respectful, if not as accurate, as possible.
To be fair, I don't think it's okay to expect accuracy when its clear from the synopsis and cover that it's going to be fantasy. Like for Cinder, it is not China at all, in my opinion. The names aren't even Chinese. I actually am Chinese but to be honest, I didn't really feel anything because I wasn't expecting a really good representation of China.
DeleteI don't think you need to be accurate unless you're trying to portray the culture correctly but you 100% need to be respectful and when the accuracy clashes with the respect, that's where things become problematic.
I dunno, I think I'd definitely like to read about those purple sparkly gremlins who live in caves in England ;) But yeah, I mean, I'm an uncultured heathen (mostly because I'm white, let's be honest), so a lot of the books I read are really intriguing when it comes to new cultures that I don't know much about. And I love it when books take those cultures and make them MAGICAL. Like, without appropriating or mis-representing the culture.
ReplyDeleteGive me your email, I'll send you that MS right now ;)
DeleteI agree! I grew up around culture everywhere but there's still a lot that I don't. That's why when people say, "this is racist!" I always listen because sure, there's always a chance someone is oversensitive, but above that, there is also always some level of truth to it.
I actually have a lot of thoughts about this! When it comes to fantasy cultures inspired by real life cultures, I like to read the thoughts and reviews of people FROM that real-life culture. I mean, there are parts of the world and parts of history that I *do* know a lot about so it's hard to ignore glaring errors. I imagine it would be even worse to be part of a marginalized group already and then see it further "butchered" on the page.
ReplyDeleteWith regards to Jay Kristoff, people were especially offended when he answered an interview question about his research by saying he browsed Wikipedia and talked to a few Japanese-speaking friends. Frankly, that's horrifying to me, and that - along with reviews from Japanese reviewers - was the reason I stayed away from that series.
I think when it's obvious that you're borrowing from another real life culture, you need to be careful. Of course you don't have to make it a historical fantasy by any means, but, for instance, when there is a clear pattern with names and surnames in that culture, you should follow it - like with The Grisha. It's also very important to avoid stereotypes and other ways that the real life people you are basing your work off of are constantly being attacked for - but that does lend to the racism bit, which you mentioned, so we won't go there.
Anyway, great discussion topic :)
YES. That makes a lot of sense. I'm fairly certain the people in outrage were mainly Japanese, at least from the reviews I read. [regarding Kristoff's book.] The only thing is I don't know about the "butchering" thing. I think that heavily depends on context. Is it butchering or trying to create something unique and beautiful?
DeleteOH MY GOD. I did not know this. I'm not Japanese but this shocks me a lot. No reader ever wants to hear this from an author O____________O
For the Grisha, I know she changed the names and surnames [like Alina Starkov should be Starkova because she's a girl? I think i read that complaint somewhere.] Actually, I just went to google Russian names and I like what Bardugo did. I feel a little weird saying this but people of that culture understand but for someone like me, I don't think I would be able to understand the system of Russian names as well as focus on the story/characters etc. Making it simpler makes sense.
I agree with you. A fantasy world derived from a culture does not have to be 100% true. In fact, that would be historical fiction. But even that can be tweaked.
ReplyDeleteThere are things that often have to be changed, including the setting/world building, in order to fit the story. And when adding the originality in the process of changing a culture into a fantasy world, there are things that aren't exactly going to match the culture. And unless anything is offensive in any way to the said culture, I personally am okay with it being different. I guess I wouldn't want a major and critical element of the culture to be changed, but it doesn't have to be completely the same.
Great post, it's a really interesting topic and I love your opinion:)
I feel like people forget the word "fantasy." It's not real, right?
DeleteAnd yes, being respectful is always key. It isn't ever okay to change someone's culture and make it a mockery of what its deriving from.
Great discussion! I don't think a book that is inspired by a culture has to be correct because they're just INSPIRED. Now, if a book is directly about a culture and not "inspired" then I think the culture has to be correctly portrayed. You gotta do yo research for those types of books! If someone got offended by books that are "inspired", then I think the authors' intentions are not to offend someone at all so they should talk it out.
ReplyDeleteI agree! The only part I'm a little iffy on is that some authors will say "inspired" to cover up that they didn't do research and that bothers me. Like if they get something wrong or leave something out, it's such a copout excuse to say, "oh it's inspired - not real." I guess those kinds of situations are up to readers' discretion.
DeleteI haven't read any of the books you mentioned. But I have read fantasy that has kingdoms inspired by a culture. For instance, I'm reading the Ranger's Apprentice and I can tell that the Skandians are very much like the Vikings/Norsemen. But are they the Vikings? No.
ReplyDeleteIt's fantasy. Aka, it's made up. It can be inspired, but inspiration never stays a 100% accurate, that's why it's "inspired." Fantasy can have parallels or a specific cultural vibe, while not remaining accurate. It's fantasy; it's not supposed to be accurate to our world. It's a whole other world. That's the point of fantasy.
Now, if someone said that their book actually took place in Russia itself, or Italy itself, then yes, I expect it to be culturally accurate. We are in the real deal here, so accuracy is needed. If it was a contemporary or historical fiction depicting a particular culture it should be culturally accurate.
Fantasy is supposed to bend the rules. It always has. It's a completely different world although there may be parallels.
This is a great discussion topic!
I totally understand this. It's meant to be fantastic and different. Sometimes, authors will even blend multiple cultures and I love that!
DeleteYes they must be 110% correct !! Haha just kidding.
ReplyDeleteThe whole point of fantasy is that it's a made up world where anything can happen. I love when authors do their research and add lots of detail and influence to mesh into their new type of culture. I love when there are snatches of multiple cultures not just one! And it's okay if it's not totally correct because it's a fantasy world, aka not real!
Rachel @ A Perfection Called Books
Research is key! I used to think that for fantasy, you don't have to do research but I feel like in fantasy, you should do even more! Research on mythology and magic is really interesting and it creates a realistic [realistic in fantasy sounds like an oxymoron] vibe.
DeleteI haven't read the Grisha trilogy yet, so I can't say anything about the books specifically. But I think people are more critical about lesser-seen cultures BECAUSE they have such little representation. Like, if someone wrote about the U.S. and messed it up, it wouldn't be a huge deal because that's one out of like, a million books set in the same place. But when the culture and such is so rarely seen, that's one out of say, (to give a completely random number), thirty well-known books. So general readers know less about the culture and are more likely to take away misinformation, and it's also a much higher percentage. There are less books getting it RIGHT, so the books getting it wrong, I think, are more harmful than they would be otherwise. (I'm not sure if any of that made sense, so if it didn't, I'm sorry!)
ReplyDeleteBut to answer the question, I think that you're right and it depends. I usually try to stay away from a book if many people from that culture are offended by it, because to me they have more say than I do about if the story is "right" or not. But in fantasy you have to do your own world building. Not everything can be the same, obviously. I think it depends on so many factors that there won't ever be a completely "right" way. Each reader is going to interpret things differently, and no matter what someone out there will be offended!
I totally agree with you!
ReplyDeleteIf something is supposed to be authentic Russia (or whatever), then yes I'd be annoyed if they butchered it because it's SUPPOSED to be something but they got it wrong.
But if an author lifts a few details from a culture and uses it in a totally new fantasy world, then they're not butchering anything. They're using details and inspiration to create something new and that's cool!
Exactly! A lot of people praised Shadow and Bone for its unique spin so I was really floored when people got upset.
DeleteThe thing about Stormdancer is that I've heard that the Japanese language is butchered a bit, so I can understand a bit of frustration on that part. As far as the rest of it... Like you said, there are gryphon tigers flying through the sky that connect to very few people in Jaeger fashion. Come on - I think we can get over a few cultural changes to adapt to that fantasy world.
ReplyDeleteWith Shadow and Bone, I feel like there isn't even enough of Russian culture to really debate that point. It's "vaguely inspired" by it, but again, there are freaking water benders. And because I'll be classy with you, I'll just say this: people need to get off their high horse and just enjoy the damn book.
Now: racism is a different point. But that's another blog post for another day ;)
Haha, I totally agree with you about Shadow and Bone. It is high fantasy. There's a shadow fold. It's just some of the names and behavioral patterns point to Russian culture. Even then, I really loved the story for what it is. I also do agree with you on people who just like to pick on every single book. I understand getting offended but when you act like people commit a crime every single time, it makes it sound like no one should be writing culture in fear of getting blasted and that sucks.
DeleteI don't think they should be 150% (or for that matter even 100%) culturally correct because it's not about that particular culture. It's based on that culture and that means that as an author you are going to take some liberties with it. I do think you should stay respectful of the culture. Going into fantasy this is going to be the case more so than in other genres. Authors borrow from cultures but in no way does this mean they're trying to replicate them.
ReplyDeleteI think unless you were writing something along the lines of historical fiction combined with fantasy you shouldn't replicate the culture a 100%, and even in those cases authors take liberties for the sake of plot and whatnot. It's just a matter of being respectful, and this goes for both authors and readers.
Yes! I feel like authors should be classy with readers' complaints. But even then, readers have to realize that the book is not necessarily trying to associate with the culture in 100%.
DeleteI feel like the important factor here is 'inspired'. That's the word that people need to remember. I get inspired by a lot of things, a lot of posts, experiences, things other people have said, things I've been taught, and if I then take thee things and feel inspired by them, 'copying' them would be unfair, it would even be blasted by some people, and so by being 'inspired', you're going to get change, and in book terms, things will look and feel and be different. You cannot have a book that's inspired keep everything you want from the inspiration, it just doesn't happen.
ReplyDeleteIf a book says 'takes place' or it's 'backdropped by' then sure, you be picky and be disappointed if that's aren't correct, but when it's inspired by, but the pitchforks down and get on with life.
Great post Nova, even for at midnight! :)
The whole "originality" situation is so sticky because so much is derivative. At this point, I think so much relies on execution. And when it comes to combining two different ideas to create a new one, the execution is SO important otherwise people'll be like, "oh this is a copy and not a well done one."
DeleteIt's a bit tricky for me. As a Chinese, I'm so wary about every single Chinese influence in books, because it matters. It matters so much in terms of respect and the idea other people have about China, but in the end, the author has the right to be creative if their fantasy in inspired by a culture. It's hard. But the best Asian inspired fantasy YA I've ever read has to be Eon.
ReplyDeleteI haven't read Eon. I'm going to check it out now. For example, Cinder was not accurate for me but I didn't care too much because the focus wasn't on the culture, it was around the crazy amount of plot. And I know how hard it is because representation matters so much but at the same time, if someone is doing a futuristic China, it isn't really "representation' because if it's futuristic, it's obviously NOT China. [Also: people really shouldn't be getting ideas of countries based on fantasy books. That makes no sense to me.]
DeleteThis is an interesting issue! I can't say that I haven't judged a book for being wrong before even if it's a high fantasy (e.g. Prophecy by Ellen Oh was inspired by Korean culture, and had some things wrong that I couldn't help but criticise). But you do bring up a good point: these worlds are "inspired" and the things they change might actually be for a good reason.
ReplyDeleteYou could have taken the words right out of my mouth! First, unless an author says, "This is Russia," there's no duty to retain each and every nuance of a culture. Surely, someone like Leigh Bardugo could explain why she didn't include a detail that she came across--bits and pieces of culture are influenced by history and if the author's world doesn't include that history it's not necessarily going to include the products of it--or she could not, because, as you said, Ravka simply ISN'T Russia but inspired by Russia. There's a huge difference. I get frustration when it's clear that the culture has been brought into a book just to add some "spice" or whatever, but it's obvious when the cultural elements are meaningful, and there's no need to be picky.
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to culture, SO MUCH goes into it that it wouldn't make sense to include everything. It might end up irritating the reader or worse, confusing them. I find that the majority of people who dislike inaccuracies are people of that culture and while I understand that they need to be represented, it's also difficult to cram EVERY BIT OF REPRESENTATION in there. Also, when you read a book, its pretty easy to tell if the author bothered to do their research. Missing or changing something are two different things, one's an ignorance and the other's a choice.
DeleteHeavily recommend the Grisha trilogy. It's got worldbuilding unlike anything i've ever seen.
ReplyDeleteYou know what, sometimes it's really hard to comment on your discussion posts, because most of the time I would've discussed my thoughts on the topic with you even before the post is actually up!:)
ReplyDeleteI think everythiong lies in the fact whether the author is inspired by a certain culture, or basing the whole story on one. If it's just an inspiration - like Grisha trilogy, I don't mind if there's a few mistakes here and there, because the culture is just an idea, not what the whole concept is about. But at the same time, if a book is totally based on a culture, I think it's important that the author gets everything right. Otherwise, it would be actually an insult to the culture. if you ask me.