If you know what brought that up, awesome. If you don't, awesome. Either way, I'm going to talk about it and as I wrote on twitter, the reason shit doesn't get solved is because so many people focus on the problem when they should see past it to figure out a solution.
Yes, shit happened. What can we do so it won't happen again?
The lovely people who think that way? We Need Diverse Books. Instead of going to hate on books that tackle culture inappropriately, they created a campaign that promotes something good. Instead of tearing something down for its mistakes, this campaign is more for making sure good things happen in the future. We can't change the things that already happened - especially if they come in the form of a published book, but we can try to influence the society so all of us are heard.
When I started reading YA, I didn't really notice or care that mainly, the protagonists were white. I cared more for the story. I'm not saying that culture isn't important - of course it is. I'm just saying that I don't mind white protagonists being in the majority. Would I love to see other cultures? Eff yeah! But most of the time in a book, the culture itself isn't present either - just the physical appearance [and I tend to skip over descriptions in every book I read. Personal preference.]
Which brings me to talking about books that do focus on culture. Asian culture [not to throw a blanket statement but I don't want to list all the countries] is hidden under a blanket where North American culture rules. I live in Canada, where diversity is a big thing. I grew up in a neighborhood where when I walk outside, it smells like one culture's food at one end of the street and another when you turn the corner. [Literally paradise, though.] Those were also houses that my family and I would go to for dinner often and those people would come to our house.
I went to MAC in the shopping mall near my house just recently and the customers/workers were a mix of every race I could think of. It was marvelous. I looked at it in awe and was so happy. If I had to explain what it's like living where I do, the situation with MAC is the best way.
So having grown up with that background, I feel a little phony calling myself Chinese at times. I do follow the customs but I also know bits and pieces of every religion/nationality and hell yes, I want to know more.
So isn't it weird when the next thing I say is that the, "girl goes to a new country and then learns their customs and gets a new perspective on life" trope bothers me.
Hey Nova, isn't that kind of what happened to you?
Yes, but you're missing the point. When I hear about a book where the setting is Africa or Indonesia, I'm expecting culture. I don't pick up the book for the main character - yes the story and other aspects are important but probably, the reason I pick it up is because I want to read something different from the typical North American setting. Quite frankly, the mannerisms of the people and the description of the places is more important than the main character to me. The entire world is bigger than her/him so when the author makes them the star of the show and lets that take precedence over the culture itself, I am annoyed. I don't think a culture's sole purpose should be a stepping stone for a bitchy girl to get over herself and realize that she needs to be kind. When I read about a new culture, I expect to feel like I'm there while I'm reading.
If the purpose of the book is to document character development in a new location, take him or her to Narnia. Take them to a new world where there isn't electricity so they'll remember to turn off the TV when they're walking away from it.
But then again, should any author be flamed for writing culture wrong? Should we say "ur trash" or "you tried"? Are either one acceptable? Is condoning racism in characters/books alright if the author is a kind person in real life? Or if the representation of culture is wrong, what should we do?
This is the year where I feel so much is going on in terms of content. There are so many more books about sexuality and mental health and, obviously, culture! I love it. It's essential to teach people about this, especially when I feel like the people I know in real life don't necessarily know/want to talk about it. I like the rise of fresh ideas in YA. I love reading about a sunken France, schizophrenia, Stockholm syndrome, a futuristic India etc. I didn't even know that I needed it so much until I read it.
But what happens when the representation is wrong? Or worse, racist? And here's another question. If I were to write something controversial, would I get a free pass because I'm Asian vs. another person who is Caucasian? Feel free to answer these in comments. I know I asked a lot of questions but that's only because I really am stuck.
Do I get offended? Yes. Do I get offended enough to call out the author? No. Do other people have that right? ...Uh. [See, I'm so stuck!]
It's such a conundrum for me. On the one hand, a mockery of any culture is wrong. If you don't say something, nothing will be solved ever. On the other, a mockery of any human being is wrong. What do you do? Where is the line drawn? And worst: if we're so awful to authors who mess up, think of how much "encouragement" we're giving to other authors who want to write about diverse topics?
The point of this post was for me to document all of my thoughts because I had so many. Where is the line drawn? How do we write culture without offending people? Or is it impossible to not offend people? I apologize if this post is all over the place but I can't edit it because that's exactly how I'm feeling right now.
Very interesting post, Nova. Personally, I don't really mind that a lot of the heroes and heroines I read are white, either. Of course I want more diversity in my books, but I wouldn't hate on a book if it doesn't have a Filipino or a Japanese or an African character in it. But, personally, for me, if the setting is in a different country, or if the character is from a different race, it's imperative that culture has to be mixed in the storyline or at least be emphasized in the character's actions, reactions, and values. I mean, the book is going to be read by so many people who may or may not have really known a lot about these countries or these cultures, so why would you portray them in a racist or in an indifferent way, especially since they are not represented so often? I'm game with making them layered and complex as long as they still emphasize what makes that person that person from this culture. That's why research is so important. I don't want to write about a person from another culture just for the sake of writing diversity, misrepresenting them and fucking up my original purpose in the first place. I would want to write a representation of them who they'd be proud of, who they can say, "Yes, this is US. This is a good representation of us." If someone's going to write about a Filipina heroine and then stamp on her all the negative stereotypes of our race, I'd be pissed, and hurt, and I'd boycott that author, because they're pretty much summing up all our cultures and background and history in petty labels and societal constructs. They have the *power* to influence people through their books, and they used it in such a manner, and I don't know, that's just really shitty for me. I wouldn't confront them publicly though, I would voice out my concerns privately, like by e-mail.
ReplyDeleteFaye at The Social Potato
Exactly! A culture is more than a plot device.
DeleteI don't think I could ever agree with bashing an author to set an example for others. fine, people are angry. that's valid, of course. culture of every kind is important. but even though people are angry, i cannot justify publicly calling out the author. i've heard a bunch of reasons and while i respect everyone's opinions, i personally think it's wrong.
Interesting post~ I have a lot of thoughts racing through my head right now so please excuse the wall of text about to come haha (also if I come off as really aggressive or something I apologize beforehand, it's not directed at you specifically this topic just gets me in general; when I say "you" it's a general you, not actually YOU if that makes sense)
ReplyDeleteYou're correct that we need to focus on getting people to change and promote the "good things" (like culturally diverse and accurate books), but the first step in actually getting people to change is to point out what they're doing wrong and why it's wrong. Like, I can give you a gigantic list of vocabulary words that can be used in place of st*pid and cr*zy, but you most likely won't actually stop using those words (and other ableist slurs) until I explain to you why those words are harmful and oppressive. Providing solutions is cool but it's not effective unless people realize what the problem is.
Books are a great outlet for diversity. You see far, far more representation for people who aren't straight white cis able-bodied neurotypical males in books than in, say, politics. But that being said, there's much more that we can do on the book front too. I get that a lot of book plots don't rely heavily on the culture/heritage of the main character so we don't really notice if popular books are dominated by white characters, but it matters. Representation matters. A nod of existence at demographics that don't fit our Eurocentric standards of beauty and perfection and normality -- that matters.
As for whether you have the right to call authors out -- yes, yes YES. I'm not talking just about misrepresenting culture here, I'm talking about anything problematic. Authors are (almost all) adults, knowingly putting their content into the hands of a targeted audience (in the case of YA, this audience is primarily teenagers). You have the right to call anyone out for anything problematic, even if it's a stranger in a line at a fast food place who accidentally used a slur (preferably politely, but in my honest opinion tone policing is a generally invalid argument), but /especially/ when that person is an adult putting out public content.
(also, sarcastic little me wants to point out that mockery of human beings is not inherently wrong xD In general it's pretty rude but if someone is being blatantly racist I think we have the right to be sassy, thankyouverymuch)
(to be continued, because apparently Blogger has character limits on comments? who knew)
- Connie @ The YA Book Thief
Recently on Twitter a lot of people have been angry that people were rude to authors (I'm not sure exactly what happened but that's what I understood?), pointedly Tweeting about how you should be civil and etc etc, but to be honest, /that/ is what made me even more angry. I'm not saying that you /should/ be rude -- like, obviously a generally more peaceful environment is preferred.
DeleteBut I am also saying -- do not invalidate the content of what people are saying because they weren't "nice enough." Do not silence the oppressed because guess why we're angry? Being oppressed isn't freaking fun. Sure, this may be the first time you've heard of the problem and you've never faced it before so you can be all happy and Let's Have A Calm Politics-y Debate about it, but oppressed people are marginalized and ostracized every single day. It's hard to distance our emotions, our anger, our passion when we're talking about our own right to be treated like a fellow human being worthy of respect and dignity. And really, what's wrong with anger? Anger is valid when I can't walk to the grocery story without people calling me a c*nt because "me and all my rice farmer people back home eat dogs." Anger is valid when [insert any one of practically infinite way people experience oppression]. Anger gets people noticed. Anger sparks change. Peaceful protests over police brutality went on for over a week and nobody cared or did anything, /that's/ why people resorted to anger.
Also, here's a great bit I found on Tumblr (link below) about why tone policing is just derailing, just continuing to perpetuate oppression: "When you tone police, you automatically shift the focus of the conversation away from what you or someone else did that was wrong, and onto the other person and their reaction. Tone policing is a way of not taking responsibility for f*cking up, and it dismisses the other person’s position by framing it as being emotional and therefore irrational." It's shifting the blame off of your problematic behavior and onto the oppressed person for not being a nice little docile sweet person.
In my opinion no, you do not get a "free pass" if you're a POC completely misrepresenting another culture in your published work. It's never okay to do that.
I understand what you mean when you talk about potentially discouraging authors who want to delve into diverse topics, but I see it the other way -- we're showing these authors that we /care/ if they don't do the proper research, if they trivialize important matters, if they perpetuate stereotypes and/or systems of institutionalized oppression. If the author was planning on putting in the time and research in the first place, they shouldn't be scared off by readers calling out the authors who didn't.
Whewww, that was a long comment, and also quite a bit angrier than my usual first comments on someone's blog (which is more along the lines of "hi :) I like your blog" ahaha) so hello ;) I like your blog!!
- Connie @ The YA Book Thief
Oops and here's that link to the tone policing post I quoted from Tumblr: http://tooyoungforthelivingdead.tumblr.com/tone-policing
DeleteOkay. Now I'm done. xD
Hi!
DeleteThanks so much for putting a message before you went on the rant otherwise I would've felt personally attacked. But now that I know you aren't talking to me directly *lets out breath*
I know what you mean about the tweets towards the author but I didn't agree. Even before, I KNEW that book was racist. And I told other people when they asked me about it. "It isn't a good portrayal on asian culture" but at the same time, there's separation of the art and the artist. I think the author was trying to make a change of the girl throughout but what she probably didn't see from my pov is that using a foreign land as a goddamn stepping stone is wrong.
but even then, calling the author trash and names is just as bad. like wtf? you have a problem with the book. that's valid. you wanna talk shit about the book/provide quotes where it's wrong? to me, that's valid. but calling the author names like "you're a disgusting human being" is not separating the art from the artist. i've heard from numerous sources that she's a nice person. and yeah, that obviously does not lessen the anger that we feel. i felt it too.
and your point about anger? yes. anger sparks change. anger does a lot of things. anger is that scale that can go either way. because anger can lead to lashing out. anger can lead to wars. anger can lead to change and eventually peace. i don't agree with using anger but i do think it's effective. and i think that's more about personality types. i'm not saying you're wrong because you aren't. you brought up some excellent points! i just want to put in the other side.
what i can't agree with is the "calling the author out" because for the situation we're thinking of, the author didn't really DO anything. she didn't say a racial slur. she just wrote a book that had a bitchy racist main character. maybe that was the intention? there's no way to prove that the AUTHOR is racist. she tried to write an anti-hero and it backfired completely. the way people were saying "let's make the author realize she's racist" is stupid. like what were they trying to accomplish? the book is already PUBLISHED/
(i'm sorry if i come off as preachy)
(i hit the enter too early)
DeleteI think that when you call authors out, you also need to have a level of respect - that way other people will listen. i would not want to be labelled as a bitch or anything for expressing my opinions. If someone is being racist in a line, the first thing I'd say is "excuse me? That's racist." I don't WANT to call them a dick or a bitch - it isn't worth it. I just want them to know that they're being racist and I don't like it. Plus, it looks bad on you when you start throwing names around IMO.
Just like on tiwtter, if someone said something like, "Wow, my sister is such a retard" I'd reply saying, "You should know that retard or retarded is offensive to those who have disabilities. Be considerate." Yes, I sound like a parent. But when it comes to social media presence, I'd rather be a parent than someone who starts swearing or being just as bad. But I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree :)
AMAZING discussion <3
"separation of art and artist": So in some instances I agree with this. Like, if you see a painting that you think exhibits poor artistry, that doesn't give you an excuse to start ranting about how the painter is a bad person overall. But it's different when we come to works that directly address the problematic topic itself. Like, if I write a book titled Why Chinese People Are The Worst People Ever, then you /can/ call me out for being racist because my actual work, my art, was racist.
DeleteI agree, I would generally prefer that we don't resort to rather meaningless insults like "you're disgusting trash" etc. I think the whole world is at a consensus that those things are hurtful and don't accomplish very much. However, the point is that /that/ is not the focus. Someone's underlying point is not invalid just because they're fighting back. In fact, knowing that someone is getting so passionate and emotional about the issue probably means it's pretty darn important.
Anger's certainly not pleasant, but that's the point. It's not the job of oppressed people to worry about the privileged people's fragile feelings. Social change is it's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable about how the world is right now. No one is going to notice or feel motivated to change if we smile and say things nicely like it doesn't hurt. And yeah, I get that not every person is one to get angry -- there are definitely people who prefer calmer chats and that's cool, but it's no reason to derail the point of people who are passionate.
I haven't read the book in question nor did I see the original Tweets in the case we're talking about, so I don't feel qualified to discuss it specifically, but in general: When an artist creates work that contains a problematic character, we need to consider how the character and their views were treated. Were the character's views glorified, or treated as normal, or trivialized into a joke? Does anyone else in the work call out the character, question their views? Did that character change to learn better about their harmful mindset or did they just stay that way? Did the work make us question that character's views or did it just further perpetuate these systems of oppression?
Like, there are plenty of historical fiction books with rampantly racist characters, and that in and of itself is not a reason to criticize the author. But if the work does not address the character's views the way I've detailed above, /that's/ when we can talk to the author about their work.
(cont.)
DeleteAlso, you mention intention. I get it, when people call us out, our first reaction is to say "I didn't MEAN it that way." And it sucks, when we were truly just being peaceful people and someone calls us out for being oppressive, it's natural to get defensive. But as YouTuber chescaleigh pointed out in a fantastic video I'll link below, it's not about intent, it's about impact. Her example: you may not have MEANT to step on someone's toe, but the reality is, their toe hurts anyway. Instead of evading the topic and blabbering about how you didn't MEAN to hurt them, own up to the mistake and just apologize.
Which brings me to the next point - "what were they trying to accomplish?" Of course, the book was already published. The author can't really do anything about the people who've already read the book now. But the point is, we need to make her aware that her actions and/or words were harmful so she (and other people who read the book thinking it was okay) never do that again. If I said something racist -- yeah, I can't take those words and stuff them back in my mouth. But if someone calls me out, they still accomplished something because I will from then on be more careful about the implications of my words and maybe even try to educate others as well.
Oh and don't apologize! :) This is a super interesting discussion. Thanks for this post and the thoughtful comment reply :D
that chescaleigh video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8xJXKYL8pU
Personally, I have not read the book in it's full length [i skimmed] but separating the art from the artist, to me, means that saying "this book is racist" and trying to get the author to realize it is worlds apart from shaming the author. Luckily, most of the people I saw were not shaming. I only saw a few that were being assholes.
DeleteI think that saying, "you're overreacting" is definitely rude and insensitive to the feelings of those who are oppressed. However, from the other perspective, they probably don't understand why the oppressed are so angry. For example, this entire discussion and the comments everyone is leaving is making me feel like I know more about the entire topic. In my view, instead of just jumping to conclusions - on either side - we need to understand why the author did what she did along with understand why people are angry. I watched the video and the "don't get defensive" part is SO IMPORTANT. To understand the problem is to figure out a solution.
Oh and the intention thing. I think you might've misunderstood it - I didn't say that her intentions excuse her actions at all.
We have to consider the circumstances here -- from what I can tell, this book was written by and published in very recent years by an adult. When you say "this book is racist" in this situation, what does that mean? Books don't have opinions. A culturally ignorant book didn't just pop into existence. The book was culturally ignorant because the author did not put the proper respect and research into its writing. From what I can tell of Goodreads reviews, the main character stereotyped and derided Korean culture without her thoughts being portrayed in a negative manner. That falls on the author -- an adult author in these times who I'm relatively certain has access to the Internet, etc. must be held responsible for being so culturally ignorant in a published work.
Delete"they probably don't understand why the oppressed are so angry": While you are correct, this is honestly all the more reason to be frustrated. When people are privileged, they take things for granted: going to their preferred bathroom without being harassed, people generally regarding their skin color and/or body type as beautiful, etc. Privileged people tend to think that there isn't a problem because they never have to face it. But that's no excuse -- it's so incredibly easy to educate yourself about your privilege. Online social justice magazines, social media activist communities, research papers about race/gender/class bias in employment... they are all over the Internet and the news. It is the job of privileged people to be aware of their privilege and apologize if they made a mistake that offended a group of people.
yeah, i don't really understand why the author didn't do research [or enough.] i know it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things but i am interested to hear the author's side of things [but without it being excuse-y]
Deleteconnie, i'm literally this gif: http://outoftimebookblog.blogspot.ca/2015/07/the-representation-of-culture-in-ya.html?showComment=1437593630992#c6930647831895830299. i don't know what else to say.
It never really occurred to me just how many white protagonists there are in books but I can really see what you mean about the risks of it being done badly or wrong and coming off as racist or something else.
ReplyDeleteit's very important to be aware of everything that's going on, even though it can be ugly.
DeleteI personally feel that if someone chooses to write about another culture, they should do the professional thing and research it carefully so that they can showcase that culture in a respectful manner. After all, books so often go viral in their popularity lately that any misrepresentation of a culture can quickly be spread. While it's always nice to see authors attempt to include or even focus on diversifying genre, I don't think they get a free pass just because they tried - they need to put in actual effort to be accurate in their portrayal as they are representing an entire group of people. I don't think the mockery of inaccurate portrayal is necessary, but I think attention needs to be drawn to it to avoid further misunderstandings by the readership.
ReplyDeleteyes, of course. if they don't research correctly, things get problematic and while i could NEVER say the author was "asking for it," what happened is what i expected people to do. people who don't know the culture could read the book and THAT'S how stereotypes spread. an ignorant book encourages ignorant people and it needs to be stopped.
DeleteI actually think it's impossible not to offend people when writing about cultures. There are always people who are going to misread something, or believe an author is stereotyping, or being racist. And because of that, I'm not surprised that other cultures aren't portrayed as often as white people in fiction. Because when you do--you run the risk, the very high risk--of pissing people off. I think a lot of writers would rather play it safe than mess around with other cultures, regardless of how much they have researched something. I'm not saying author's SHOULDN'T write about other cultures--but I, personally, am put off of doing it. What if I get something wrong? What if someone perceives me as racist? I think writers are put in a very tricky position because of that. Either they're accused of NOT including PoC nationalities/minority groups, or accused of being racist and doing something "incorrectly." Eh. I don't know. It's a tough one. I'd love to see more of the world's nationality represented in fiction, but there will always, always be people who will criticize, and there are going to be people who will (most likely unintentionally) misrepresent a culture in fiction.
ReplyDeleteAMAZING post, Nova. <3 <3 <3 <3
Yes, I agree with this too. simone elkeles' perfect chemistry series featured hispanic culture and i heard about people who loved it/hates it and are hispanic. american culture is the easiest to write because most authors live it. not all authors live{d} in another country and experience the customs.
Deletei hate it when authors get criticized for not being diverse enough. if you want diversity, encourage it to FUTURE writers - not hate books that have already been published. to me, not enough diversity isn't good enough an excuse to hate a book.
I think you're always going to offend someone when writing about a certain culture or religion or whatever. They're sensitive issues and things a lot of people take very seriously and will get upset about if they feel that it is being misrepresented. The key is to research. If you're going to write about other cultures you need to do your homework, especially if it's a culture different to your own. Read books, talk to people of that culture, and really get to grips with the details. If something's accurate, then at least if it offends someone the author can say they were just being truthful to the facts. What I don't like is when authors are too lazy to research and just use stereotypes - that's when shit gets annoying
ReplyDeletethe worst is when authors THINK they've done research and really it isn't. then things just get really bad.
DeleteIf you're going to write culture, people will be offended. I get offended when Brits are painted as one thing in US published books, and therefore we are slammed as a specific type of person, and that irritates me, so yes, people will always be offended, but it doesn't mean that diversity and culture shouldn't be written about, you know? I guess it just depends on how you feel in the end, but I think I'm on the side of; write about culture, because people need and want to see themselves reflected in characters, don't bring in some culture and not see it through - research and do it right.
ReplyDeleteGreat post Nova! :)
i've watched a few english tv shows and there are differences [that i didn't even know!] in their mannerisms and way of speaking. however, they aren't the stereotypes and it bothers me that instead of people having common knowledge about cultures, people have stereotypes which aren't helpful at all.
DeleteI'm going to pull the ol' "when I was your age..." bit on you, but just to say that when I was your age, I probably would have written a post similar to this with similar questions and feelings. But now I've answered those questions and they align pretty closely with Connie's thoughts above.
ReplyDeleteI was the one who started this "attack" on Katie Stout, as it has been described, but I'm really confused about the outrage it has caused because as far as attacks go, it...didn't seem like much of one from my end. I tweeted twice, mentioning her username directly in only one of the tweets, and it was "How do we get @katiemstout to see how awful this is?" Not how awful *she* is, but *this*, as in the premise of her story. It got a number of RTs and favorites, but beyond that, I only saw a handful of tweets directly mentioning her afterward and almost all of them were focused on how her trope is racist and she's following a formula that continues to promote exoticism. I don't recall seeing any tweets that insulted her directly beyond one person's "hi maybe if you're gonna write about Asian people consider not being racist! Just a thought," which didn't seem like much. I don't track other people's usernames so I don't know if there were other things being said. But I definitely did not see anything calling her any outrageous curse words, and very few people were mentioning her directly in their critiques of her story.
Anyway. A lot of what I would have said was covered by Connie's comments above and I also recommend those posts she mentioned about tone-policing. I'd just like to say that I'm fully aware her book has already been published and it's not going to be pulled off shelves anytime soon. I wasn't trying to get her to change an already-published book. I was looking for an acknowledgement that what she wrote was offensive and perpetuates a trope that is used far too often that only reduces "other" (namely, Eastern) cultures to a prop for character development and erases the people within that culture completely.
I can't change what's already been done, but I can voice my anger about it, because regardless of how "nice" she is, her book is harmful.
Hi Erin!
Deletei just wanted to say that i'm very glad you commented on this. twitter has that character limit so after reading this comment, i think i understand everything better. especially since how i've heard your intentions.
i will admit, when i first read the tweet, i rt-ed instantly because i agree. the quotes are awful and racist. i wish this book wasn't published - it's hurtful and i honestly do not know why it's published when there's already enough racism in the world. [i hadn't seen the first tweet @ the author]
you are not responsible for the actions of others. and you shouldn't be seen as that. i saw a few tweets that were just downright hurtful without trying to be educational. they were like "you're trash" or "you're a disgusting person."
in my opinion, i agree with telling the author about the problems. but i feel like things could've been done in a better way. it's like - if you wrote an email to the author in the vein of this comment, it seems like it would've gone a lot farther because it made a lot more sense and i can completely see where you're coming from. im speaking for myself because i didn't really understand what you wanted from the author and now i do. i didn't understand why people were angry and now i do. i think what i'm trying to get across is that when you phrase it this way where you explain what's REALLY going on and how you feel, i don't feel confused anymore. i GET it.
See, this is why I'm reaching out to you about this, because at your age (a whole 8 years ago, my God) I would've felt the same way. I would have also found my methods unproductive and more emotional than rational.
DeleteBut as time goes on, I spend more and more time educating people about racism and xenophobia and various other prejudices I face when the resources for learning about all of this are out there. It's exhausting, honestly. And it's unfair that I have to spoon-feed these lessons to white people when I've had to learn them through racial abuse and harassment. Is it that specific white person's fault? No, but they're benefitting from the system when I'm suffering in it, while making no effort to educate themselves on their own. And it's upsetting, and people get emotional, and we react.
I know it doesn't seem like the "best" route, but on some days, this is the best I can give and I won't apologize for that. And it's wrong to expect the oppressed to bend backward in kindness to teach their oppressors a lesson when the resources are literally out there in the form of online articles, online journals, videos, just...anything, if they bothered looking for it.
Lol honestly I'm a little daunted by these crazy long comments, but I'm just going to throw in my two cents.
ReplyDeleteThis is a thoughtfully written posts with even more thoughtful responses. I think a lot of us teenagers- especially those of us that are indeed POC- are trying to grapple through the whole race thing in the context of our world. (Which, by the way, is one reason why reading is so important and another reason why we most definitely need diversity portrayed in YA books). The We Need Diverse Books campaign has been absolutely fantastic about proactively creating a solution- that's something they talked about at the WDNB panel I was at, which I was super fortunate to be able to attend. I think addressing diversity is extremely important.
I don't think Tweeting mean things at authors is the way to go, though. I think calling people out is necessary, but it can be done in a private manner if you want to directly message the author, or send them an email saying "hey, this isn't right, and this is a problem.". You can be polite yet still be firm, and I think that's critical since we're in what feels like a defining time for diverse books and such.
I want to see culture portrayed in books, but for me, it doesn't have to be the very forefront. Rather, I'd like to see more subtly incorporated through the book. Like, how does the culture affect the way the character thinks about a certain thing? I want to see it molded into a book so perfectly that it's simply a PART of the book, a part of the character. I honestly have yet to see that done in a book.
Lovely, lovely post, Nova. Thank you for writing it, and I love how articulate you were. <33
Actually, same. It's been a long time since I've had such long and conficting comments! It's definitely a LOT daunting.
DeleteI don't want to call an author out for their racist book unless they're tweeting racist things themselves - then, I think it's in my right. But from what I've read on other comments, I think the reason people were calling the author out is because they are tired of feeling like they need to explain why the author is racist. I'm not saying it's right but now, at least, I see both sides.
Oh boy, I am going to try to get my thoughts in order before I start, otherwise, this could be a mess! Okay. Let's give it a go! First of all, I realize that my viewpoint is different in this circumstance because I am not (ethnically speaking) a minority (in the US, anyway). However, I feel like I am still a rational and reasonable human being and can see why people would be offended, so I have a few points:
ReplyDelete1. Was the book out of line/offensive? Well, from everything I have read (since I didn't read the book, BUT read a lot of quotes and reviews and passages), YES. I don't think it was intended to be so, but it really seems like it is. And for the record, if a whole group of people is offended by something, they have every right to feel that way. No one can say "oh hey, you shouldn't be offended". Because if you are, you are.
2. To me, this goes WAY beyond the author, and it is unfair to single her out. I mean, one person can make an honest, legitimate mistake in judgment. I mean, no author is setting out to piss off a whole bunch of people with their book. And there are entire teams of people who ALSO lacked the judgment to say "wait- isn't this going to really upset some people?", but didn't either.
3. Can you talk about ANY diversity issue without offending someone? No, probably not. But, you'd obviously be trying your hardest to present things as accurately as possible, and then let the chips fall where they may. Along those lines, if an author doesn't want to write diversity, that should also be their prerogative.
4. So, the author has offended you. Do you call her/him out on Twitter/FB/Whatever? This is a resounding NO. I'm sorry, I never see how this is okay. This is why we have reviews, letters/emails to the publisher, etc. I think there are very appropriate ways to address these concerns- and people have EVERY RIGHT to do so. But calling the author out on a personal social media account? Nope. Think of it this way: You're at school, and a teacher has a big old problem with you. Instead of speaking to you privately, writing a letter to your parents, she blasts you all over Twitter, tagging you, telling everyone you know how much she HATES the article you wrote for the school paper, etc. Is that ever okay? Of course not! YES, you wrote something publically, YES someone had a problem with it... but they need to take the proper channels. Just my two cents.
So basically, I just feel like it IS a problem that needs to be addressed, but in a much better way. No one can un-publish a book, but sending a well thought out letter to the publisher may have them think twice before they release a similarly offensive book.
Sorry for the novel ;) I think you are awesome for putting so much thought into this too- it shows a lot of maturity and intelligence that you want to think it out rationally before acting!
Shannon @ It Starts At Midnight
1. unfortunately, even though it wasn't intentional, people were still hurt and those feelings are justified. I have no idea why anyone would want to write a book with a racist mc who doesn't go through ANY development so yes, i am being very judgmental about that.
Delete2. oh yeah, def agree with this. all the events in the past continuously make people angry and katie stout probably was another one in line.
3. i hate the, 'there wasn't enough diversity' comments in reviews. like that isn't a thing you should base judgment on [unless it's a diverse setting or the situation calls for it]
4. i think what people were doing is trying to make an example out of what authors shouldn't do but it was not done in the right way :(
As a writer, this actually terrifies me...because I feel like no matter HOW hard an author tries, if they're not from that culture, odds are they're going to stuff up. Like there's just so many little things you wouldn't know unless you WERE from the culture. You know? So I kind of applaud authors who try, and mess up, because at leas they're trying. At the same time, though, it is offensive. Every time a British or American author writes an Aussie, they totally make them the dorky "she'll be right mate" joker. AND WE'RE NOT ALL LIKE THAT. Gah. It's just playing off stereotypes. It's frustrating.
ReplyDeleteLooots of good questions here and I loved reading your thoughts. 0_0 IT'S A TOUGH ONE.
OH. And PS I don't think a book should ever be slammed for "not being diverse enough". Gee, that's like critiquing an author for writing about something they don't feel comfortable attempting. I don't think it's fair. I think we DO need more diverse books, but I don't think, like you said, the books already out should be punished/glared at.
as an author, i'm very glad you commented on this post!
Deletei read a book where the author was australian and to be fair, the characters didn't seem much different [the slang was slightly different but that's it.]
I'm not sure what happened, but I'm definitely alarmed. I typically try to write the diversity I live in to avoid misrepresentation, but I know that as an author, I will have to go outside that comfort zone sometimes.
ReplyDeleteAs readers, I think we should always appreciate and evaluate diversity in books. If it's deliberate or unintentional mockery, I'd say call it out in the same way you'd call out flat characters or a slow plot -- reviews, Goodreads, tweeting but not mentioning the author handle. And really, I don't think a lack of diversity should be punished. WNDB should be encouraged, but pressuring authors into writing unfamiliar diversity will just backfire. Lovely post, Nova!
it was a thing where people called an author out for their racist main character [where the character never went through any development and her behavior was acceptable.]
Deletei don't know if i can agree with this because even if an author thinks its unintentional, the feelings of hurt that readers can feel certainly aren't. and it isn't fair to put, "unintentional" over "my feelings are hurt." but i do understand what you mean.
I still haven't been able to find out what happened, so I'm absolutely clueless on that front.
ReplyDeleteI'm always so hesitant to talk about diversity in books because I'm white and so afraid that I'm going to say something that isn't right/that's offensive/it's not my place to say anything. And that sucks. And I feel horrible about it, and I do research, and I STILL don't think I can say anything without screwing it up. And I think if a book shows up that offends THAT many people, people need to know about it. They need to know that the portrayal is wrong. And honestly? I think the author needs to know that too. I think the team behind the book needs to know that, so they don't make the same mistake again. I think someone needs to acknowledge that it was wrong. I don't think anybody should be attacked, obviously. That's not going to get anyone anywhere. But neither is continually letting inaccurate books be published and further feed stereotypes or just feed into the problem. And I don't know if any of that even makes any sense but i DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAAAAAYYYY
I don't know how it feels to talk about diversity and not be poc but from what I've seen, it's always better to be silent and learn from those with the personal experiences before writing definitive posts. like even this one is an attempt to encourage discussion. the comments are more intelligent than the actual post - like i intended
DeleteThis is really is an interesting post. Very controversial. But important nonetheless. I think I see what you're saying here. It's not okay for the representation of a culture to be inaccurate. But it's not cool to call bad names and basically bully the authors who did it wrong.
ReplyDeleteI think if you're going to write about a different culture, you should be informed. Do your research. Befriend people of this culture. Ask questions. Immerse yourself in it. Have people of this culture read your writing to proof it for cultural mistakes (I think that's the best safeguard any writer could give themselves).
But I'm not going to say it's easy. I've never written about diversity. In fact, it scares me to do so, because of all the research, because I want it to be accurate. And that's hard. I write fantasy. I make up my own cultures and getting them all straight and accurate is its own challenge. And I'm the one who knows the most about them!
If I were to review a book that was culturally incorrect, I would point it out. I would probably say it annoyed me. But I would give the author credit for the things he/she did well. Perhaps the author did try. Perhaps he/she didn't. But I can't point fingers. I can say, "I think the author could've done better. But I do understand that writing diversity isn't easy." I mean, I don't know their situation so I can't specifically judge. I can be disappointed. But I'm not going hunt authors down on some social media site and drag their names in the mud.
Now that it's been a while since I wrote the post, i think my perspective is a little different.
Deletei talked to some people and realized that i was missing the part about research you're talking about. if the author doesn't bother to do it and gets stuff wrong, sure, it's a mistake but it's a dumb one. And that being said - i knew this was going to happen and i can't understand people who can't fathom how this happened. racism is so touchy now because it's happening blatantly and it needs to stop. a book that's hurtful isn't helping anyone's case. however, even though it happened, i didn't WANT it to. that's where i'm conflicted.
This is such a thought-provoking post! Diversity is something I think about often as a reader, but also as a writer. It can be difficult as I know, even with a ton of research and trying to do everything right, it's still possible to portray a culture or minority in the wrong way.
ReplyDeleteFor me, the most important thing I look for is whether or not the characters come across as real people, fully developed as the rest of the cast. And then it's really all about research, which I think is a point that many authors miss. Now that we have more people talking about diverse books, it seems like some authors might be adding diverse characters without realizing how much work they need to put in to make those characters and their culture real and developed, rather than just being there for the sake of it.
It's difficult to think about when things should be pointed out to the authors. I mean, I do believe readers should be pointing out author's mistakes, but I can definitely see how that can go too far and turn into readers bashing the author, which isn't okay, nor is it ever going to be helpful! Many authors are still learning, and nobody learns by being attacked.
in a diverse setting, the setting itself is almost like a character - as weird as that sounds. it has to be fully developed and real - just like if it were a high fantasy. and i mean that towards respect to those of that culture.
Deletethere's SO MUCH about research. i'm not saying you have to go to the place but really, that's the best option. the second best is talking to people who have lived there their whole life
OHHH BOY. HO-HO-HOOOOO BOY THIS'LL BE FUN. I have so many opinions on this topic because I have so many opinions about how people handle this all in general ANYWAY. Disclaimer: if I at any point swear, I do apologize. ;)
ReplyDelete1) There is a lack of diversity in culture in YA. There's a lack of diversity in books in GENERAL. So many white protagonists, so many straight protagonists...so many middle class characters and so many lacking disabilities and so many just VANILLA things. I'm the first to admit that until I stepped back I never noticed how little diversity was in YA. Until it MATTERED, I didn't look. I didn't notice. But once you DO see it it becomes really important. It becomes something you fight for. I want more than just white protagonists, and I'd like for SOMEONE to acknowledge that you can be more than just L or G in the LGBTQIA acronym.
Point in summary: YA is lacking. It's getting better but it is STILL. LACKING. And don't even get me started on New Adult, which is like the #1 whitest and straightest genre out there. I know there are gems throughout, but LOUD voices are still predominantly white and straight romance ones. NA now is what YA used to be. Thank God things are changing.
2) There is a lack of positive author/reader interaction on social media. Turning back to Point 1: if we want diversity in our books, shouldn't we be saying to authors that diversity is a thing we root for? Of course! But how do we go about that?
And that's where I had such an issue with those girls coming at Stout for Hello, I Love You's (admittedly problematic) content. They didn't resort to emailing or reviewing or organizing their thoughts among friends for a discussion on their blogs. Because here's the thing: I think a lot of people often forget, especially on social media, that authors are real people. You're not talking to a representative of the author when you tweet them. Even J. K. Rowling's tweets are WRITTEN BY J. K. ROWLING. That's kind of the cool thing about author twitters -- you're talking to them! Sweet. Cool. A+. But are you abusing that privilege?
And let's combine Point 1 and Point 2 to make...
3) We should be outspoken about diversity and how much we want it. I'm not saying we should be quiet. I'm not saying that we should simply ignore when an author disrespects a culture or something they don't understand (straight writer writing about LGBTQ character for example) because that's passive and goes entirely against what fighting for diversity is SUPPOSED to be.
What I'm saying is that social media + authors + readers + book content debate = problem. Twitter in particular is not a good discussion format. 140 characters makes it hard to debate, especially on issues such as racism and cultural degradation. So what REALLY bothers me is seeing readers @ authors and corral other readers into pulling out their pitch forks too. There is a person behind that screen, and they're seeing these things, and they're going to react accordingly. Because they are a HUMAN BEING.
So, to wrap this up because I know I've probably reached some sort of character limit: I think, as a community and an audience, we need to speak up. We need to say "Hey, I don't feel you accurately represented bisexuals in this character and that offends me" or "I don't feel you correctly portrayed authentic Indian culture in this book and that worries me" because these are discussion starters. These are ways for an author to ask "Okay, what can I do better next time?" These questions bring up room for IMPROVEMENT. But the line is drawn when you come to an author on Twitter and say "You're racist and your big is racist and I am so upset" because you're not open to debate or discussion -- you're just here to throw someone to the wolves.
And THAT is my problem with demanding diversity and social media. Bad comment is bad because I'm so frazzled about this whole thing.
OH SYDNEY YOU IS A GODDESS FOR THIS COMMENT HOT DAMN
DeleteThe problem for me is that it's lacking but then thrown in the mix are authors who think they can get by without research. Naturally, because yes, I totally expected the blast at the author, people will get angry. They will get pissed off and they won't necessarily follow the tagging the author rules that we do. Am I mad at them for it? Hell no. For me, I'm split both ways because that book personally offended me too. In a sick way, I'm kind of happy it happened because why should anyone get away with racism? It isn't the job of poc to educate white people about racism.
BUUUUUUTTTT
and here's where I completely agree with you. Calling an author out on twitter gives them NO CHANCE to explain at all. the character limit with amount of people bombarding is awful. If anything, it should've been done in email and if the author truly cared, they'd write a post or something explaining it. Accusations cause people to get defensive SO FAST and that's not the point at all - we want people to learn and not shy away from writing diversity and this isn't the way to go.
Well, you know how confused I am about this. On one hand, we really need more diversity. On the other hand, is it a good thing to have poor representation of all the different cultures in books that will be read by who knows how many people?
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I am definite about is to not tag the author when you're being mean and disapproving. Remember that post I asked you to read? That's okay, but tagging the authors themselves in it is a big no. I wish I could so they would notice and understand why I have problems with it as a Chinese, but that would be simply rude.
First of all, I am extremely impressed that you managed to write this post without calling anyone out. Good for you!
ReplyDeleteYou have a lot of questions, and I do not have many answers, but I will try my best.
The only thing a person (or an author) can is try their best to write a good story. Not every book is going to knock our socks off. Not every book is going to have a great main character, or an interesting setting, or a thought-provoking theme. Along the same lines, not every book is going to be perfectly diverse. It is just not possible. No matter how much we campaign and complain, it will never happen. On the other hand, I think we (readers, bloggers, AND authors) should do our best to prove me wrong. I strongly believe that everyone should be able to read a book and see themselves, whether it is emotionally, mentally, or physically. Everyone should be represented.
I also believe that racist is racist no matter who you are. If you are intentionally (that is the key word here) insulting someone else because of their race, you are racist. No matter who you are. But that is where the line gets blurred. When is something intentional versus just ignorance? If an author is going to try to tackle something as important as a diverse book, they should definitely do their research. Find out more about the people you are going to write about. Then, you are less likely to offend anyone. If an author does not research, I think they are edging the line into intentional racism. Ignoring a culture and writing whatever you want is not the solution to this problem.
If an author has done research and gone out of their way to truthfully represent something diverse, then they are AWESOME, no matter if the representation is perfect or not. This diverse movement is to try and get authors and readers out of their comfort zones. It is NOT going to be pretty at first, and maybe it never will. But as long as everyone is trying to make it work, we will be fine.
Great discussion Nova! I hope you were able to understand my ramblings....
I really REALLY struggled with this topic this week. First of all, where do we draw the line to call out racist books? The whole book that is in question, to me, is a VERY RACIST BOOKS, and the quotes that popped up on Twitter were horrible. Do I think someone should have brought it up? Sure. Was it done properly? No, not at all. Blindsiding someone with that much hate is going to shut down any useful conversation. But that book is so horrible, I still have no idea how it was published.
ReplyDeleteAs for the discussion, I agree with you. I think someone coined this issue as "The Last Samurai Syndrome" (named after the Tom Cruise film where the white person infiltrates the Japanese culture and out-Japaneses the people). I have stuck with that term with this type of book, where a white person goes to a country and outshines the local culture as the Best _________ (insert cultural name) Ever. I hate it. I hate how it is so insulting for white people (yes, I am a white-as-hell girl) to go and show everyone "I can do this better than you heathens". It even happens with other white cultures (Anna and the French Kiss). White people have been doing this for years, and all it has done is resulted in stereotypes, racism, white supremacy and the transfer of deadly illnesses. Like you said, books in this nature shouldn't focus on the main character. It should focus on the new culture. That is why we showed up - for THAT, not the white bread MC.
Okay, rant over. This issue has been plaguing me for a while.
I think when an author steps out of their own experiences, and attempts to write something they haven't lived with, they run the risk of writing it wrong. We only know our own, personal experiences, and even with research, we aren't going to get another one 100% correct. So, I think, any diverse book written by someone outside of that diversity, it's probably going to get both positive and negative feedback.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I do think it's wrong to personally attack an author for what they may have written incorrectly, or unrepresentatively (that's not a word, but you know what I'm getting at). I think civil, constructive discussions are the way to go. Sadly, once a book is published, it cannot be taken off the shelves and changed to better provide an accurate depiction of diversity. All the author can do is learn from respectful discussion to do better next time. Just like anyone trying their hand at something they are new to.
I don't think that diverse titles should be limited to those who have experienced them, though. Even though it might provide great true to life stories, writers should be able to write the ideas in their head, as long as they do it respectfully, and with tact, and can openly discuss (always respectfully) what might have gone right and wrong in their writing of a diverse character or setting that they aren't living.
This is a little unrelated, but I think it's still important to note that a character and a book is NOT the author. A character can be horrible, and despicable, and do and think terrible things - but that doesn't mean that the author is horrible, and despicable, and does and thinks terrible things. I mean, sure there are probably cases where a character is extremely similar to their author, but a lot of the time, they're pretty removed from ourselves. One of my favourite characters that I've written is so completely different to me.
This is a good discussion, because I don't necessarily think there's definitive answers for any of the questions. Try, and if you fail: try again. I think that's what the diverse book movement is all about. If you don't get it right the first time, keep trying. But I also think that readers need to be more constructive. Attacking someone, or tweeting about them with cruel remarks and responses is not going to help anyone. Open, frank, and respectful discussion about representation is the only real way forward, in my opinion. Cross-checking, beta-reading from people who have lived the experience that an author is writing about is imperative to accurate representation. It'll never be perfect, because even two people living in the same country, or going through the same kinds of experiences will never be exactly the same. But as longs as the book is tactful and the diversity is handled with care, I think we're close to being on the right track.
chiara this is so insightful, i am very happy.
Deletei definitely agree with this because unfortunately, the best we can do after a mistake is to learn from it. even though it's a little callous of me to say, i feel like the author should use this experience to learn that racism without any resolution isn't the way to go. i wish the situation could've been handled better, though.
i think encouragement is the way to go. the resources are all there and authors need to do their research. less is not more - more is more! the situation that occured was based off bad research and that's all on the author, unfortunately.
I'm not sure of the specific book that you're referencing here, but I do think it's a shame that people slammed an author personally for getting something wrong. The biggest problem I see with this is that it really discourages people from stepping out of their comfort zones and trying to put diverse characters out there - unfortunately, these really negative situations are what stand out to people and it puts everyone in a stance of fear (and even hatefulness). Does that mean that people shouldn't speak out against something they disagree with? Absolutely not - but it's the way that people go about it that makes all the difference. I totally agree with you that the positive messages of We Need Diverse Books make way more headway than all the hate spewing can. It's a shame when that message is spoiled.
ReplyDeleteIn the end, I hope that people will continue to stand up for what they believe in but manage to do it in a way that is not hateful and ultimately harmful. I've always felt that you can't actually get your point across that way anyway because people are too busy feeling defensive to hear your actual message. It's a shame that social media so often breaks down into chaos and hatefulness in these sorts of situations.
Nicole @ Feed Your Fiction Addiction
I think you've misunderstood the situation a little and that's probably my fault. The author didn't JUST "get something wrong," she had a blatantly racist MC without any consequence. But I do understand what it means to other authors. There is so much hatred going on, on both fronts and I wish it would just go away but unfortunately, it can't.
DeleteWe Need Diverse Books is the best thing I've seen in a long time. I'm hoping it'll carry us for an even longer time :)